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September 09, 2010, 03:53:05 am
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Lynxara
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Old-Fashioned
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Topic: Old-Fashioned (Read 4235 times)
Lynxara
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Posts: 173
Old-Fashioned
«
on:
September 27, 2007, 03:41:21 pm »
Gaming has a curious double-standard regarding when a franchise is allowed to change and when it isn't. Series that go out of their way to never let the gameplay change too much end up like Armored Core, enthusiastically loved by the tiny fanbase that comprehends the gameplay, and sort of irrelevant to everyone else. Then again, changing too much too quickly draws complaints, too.
This puts long-running mainstream franchises that can't really afford to become niche titles or alienate die-hard fans in an interesting position. There have already been complaints about Halo 3's gameplay feeling too dated when compared to shooters like Gears of War or BioShock, and I'm currently playing Project Gotham Racing 4 and wondering how much more I would like if it I hadn't already played the more-sophisticated Forza 2. This said, if Halo 3 or PGR4 had too openly mimicked any competitor, wouldn't the long-time fans (justly) feel slighted?
It's strange, because when it comes to niche titles, a lack of change tends to strike me as a selling point. Playing Culdcept and Culdcept Saga back-to-back for the November issue and finding them nearly identical (aside from visual overhauls) was actually very delightful for me. I'm sure if I went back and played some of the import-only Culdcept titles, I'd find that their gameplay was utterly identical, too. It's the same part of me that finds Atelier Iris games and N1's refusal to abandon sprite-based graphics appealing, for their steadfast refusal to "break" something classic just to look updated. A lot of gamers who enjoy niche titles tend to have similar views.
So why isn't this a view that is more widely respected when it comes to more mainstream titles? After all, gamers weren't pleased that Super Mario Sunshine was effectively Mario 64's gameplay with a few little twists; they were pissed that it didn't represent the quantum leap forward. Then again, what everyone loved about Twilight Princess was how it hearkened back to the N64 Zelda games in almost every way. I suppose the crux of the post is: why is it sometimes okay to make a franchise game extremely similar to previous titles in the series, and why is it sometimes not?
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georox
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Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #1 on:
September 27, 2007, 04:22:46 pm »
Well see heres the thing, some fans want the previous title redone, some don't. I like Twilight Princess BECAUSE it felt like OoT and not the sh*tsandwich that was wind waker >_> (Be offended if you liked Windwaker, the graphics pissed me off. A lot.) I'm loving Halo 3 even though its not much different than the last 2, I mean they added more yes, but its still an FPS. I hated that water thing in sunshine, I preferred 64 over it... but I did give it a thorough playing and it wasn't a horrible game. Problem is, some people want everything to be completely different with new engines, graphics, new everything.
Also, sprites FTW.
Also, Also, we need more EDF.
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Lynxara
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Posts: 173
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #2 on:
September 27, 2007, 04:30:01 pm »
EDF is another good example of a game series that's fun because the gameplay never changes that much, that's true. The only thing 2017 was missing was online co-op, which would basically make it the perfect arcade-style 3PS.
With Halo 3, it's not even that it's "just an FPS". I play a lot of FPS in the course of covering the 360 beat. It's that Halo 3 resembles Halo 1 & 2 far more than any other competing modern FPS on the market right now. The rest of the genre has evolved and changed while Halo refuses to depart from its original gameplay formulas. I can't say that I find this good or bad, just... well, interesting.
See, with Zelda, I think it's interesting that people immediately defend TP by saying that it's better than another game like Wind Waker, instead of making a third argument that's logically possible: to be disappointed that it's another Zelda game that tries to be more like old Zelda games than something trail-blazing. People make complaints about games like this all the time... just not about Zelda. Why not?
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Hitoshura
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Posts: 15
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #3 on:
September 27, 2007, 04:33:52 pm »
I'd wager it has something to do with nostalgia.
I think people don't want to actually play the same established mainstream franchise over and over again, so they do eventually have to change. Case in point: Mega Man. At the same time, people also want to
feel
they are playing an old game without having to seperate the fact they're playing the same game over for the Nth time by attaching it to the name.
Niche games I think can get away with not changing much, because they're kind of a nostaliga fix; good in small doses, bad if you OD on it. That's why when a series gets mainstream acceptance it has to let go of its nostlgic trappings and try new things, otherwise it will fall by the wayside as being too dated.
The really interesting thing is that Disgaea is about to become mainstream within the niche gaming community, which is a really awkward position to be in.
Then again, nothing what I've said here even applies to MegaTen, as that is by far and away the biggest exception.
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georox
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Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #4 on:
September 27, 2007, 05:11:09 pm »
On Megaman - I liked Megaman through Megaman X I think 6 or so, then they started going 3d and stuff and it died to me. I liked it a simple 2d platformer. Also, Legends wasn't a bad series for Megaman, but the new stuffs awful and I can't stand that network battle series at all. Why don't people insult Zelda? Rabid nintendo fanboys.
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honestgamer
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Posts: 1058
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #5 on:
September 27, 2007, 05:34:56 pm »
Zelda is an example of a series that has in some ways evolved in directions I don't like. I mean... they're still fantastic games, but they're different from the Zelda I fell in love with...
The Zelda I fell in love with was the original one on the NES, that game that so many newer gamers like to hate on now because you can so easily break sequence and turn it into a huge adventure where you're wandering around and doing whatever you like...
To me, though it had structure if you followed the numbered dungeons sequence, The Legend of Zelda was appealing because it was a sandbox game in so many ways. I just ran around, battling monsters and heading to dungeons out of order, all the while exploring a fantastic world.
New Zelda seems to be bowing to pressure from mainstream games to become more cinematic, to tell a deeper story, to be clever and deep and emotional all at once. So when I see Twilight Princess or whatever, I want to play it because it's good, but I wish the series hadn't ever 'evolved' beyond graphics and such.
I guess what I'm saying is that if a series is going to evolve, it should evolve so that it's still a great game (as Zelda has done), or people will call 'shenanigans' on it.
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Leonhart
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Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #6 on:
September 27, 2007, 08:54:26 pm »
I feel the same way with the Metroid and Super Mario series, honest.
I loved the 2D Metroids, but can't stand the current FPS's.
Same with Super Mario. I love the 2D games (or even the 2.5D, in the case of NewSMB), but I can't get into the 3D Mario's... even Super Mario 64.
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georox
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Posts: 2532
I can smell your tasty BRAINS!
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #7 on:
September 27, 2007, 09:27:48 pm »
I'm a firm hater of the Metroid Prime series myself. Metroid wasn't meant to be an FPS, it doesn't play well as one. Also, me on the original Zelda involved lots of swearing and throwing NES controllers, and by the way those things don't break.
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Lynxara
Moderator
Member
Posts: 173
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #8 on:
September 27, 2007, 09:38:30 pm »
Quote from: honestgamer on September 27, 2007, 05:34:56 pm
The Zelda I fell in love with was the original one on the NES, that game that so many newer gamers like to hate on now because you can so easily break sequence and turn it into a huge adventure where you're wandering around and doing whatever you like...
I can't imagine why you'd hate on a game for letting you break sequence. I wish more modern games would let you do it. I know something that was delightful about the early N1 strategy games was the freedom to had to build weird characters and teams, yet still win battles with them if you built carefully. What soured me so badly on Soul Nomad was absolutely, well, linear and prescribed the gameplay was. It gave you the appearance of being able to make choices without actually letting you do anything very meaningful.
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honestgamer
Editor
Member
Posts: 1058
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #9 on:
September 27, 2007, 09:57:10 pm »
Well, I suppose the REAL complaint is that Zelda let people wander around so much. But really, that was always part of its charm. So people who play it now tend to complain that everything was the same, that it was easy to get lost...
I loved that about the game. I loved recognizing landmarks and finding my way around Hyrule. For me--and in ways that no other game has surpassed--it was an entrance to a fantastic world.
The new Zelda games are more cinematic and more linear. That was true even of Zelda II. In that game, you can break minor things in the sequence, but ultimately it's nearly impossible to get the hammer without going to the first palace. It's not possible to head to the south portion of the east island until you've at least ventured deep in the fifth palace. You can play around with that, but it's not like in Zelda where you could theoretically start with the eighth palace.
Then A Link to the Past was even more linear. You couldn't even reach the bulk of the dungeons until you had finished the first three. That was it, a hard rule. Ocarina of Time basically just repeated that but substituted 'time' for 'parallel world.' Most people are familiar with the progression from there.
So essentially, Zelda has evolved a lot more than some people really think, and I wish it hadn't. I liked the original a lot, and so many of the qualities that accounted for that have been dilluted with time. There are familiar themes in most of the games, but overall I'd be happier if Zelda was still (essentially) a sandbox game. A sandbox game with a few killer dungeons you could visit in any order you liked and a world to explore that felt more like Liberty City and less like the castle in Super Mario 64...
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georox
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Posts: 2532
I can smell your tasty BRAINS!
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #10 on:
September 27, 2007, 10:42:59 pm »
I remember getting all or nearly all of the hidden items before going after the dungeons. That was always fun.
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R. Jakobi
Member
Posts: 54
21st Century Digital Boy
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #11 on:
October 02, 2007, 05:25:45 pm »
...what's the difference between Forza and PGR again?
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James
Editor
Member
Posts: 302
Re: Old-Fashioned
«
Reply #12 on:
October 14, 2007, 03:06:48 am »
I've given up on trying to figure out what people want and just go for what makes me happy. ChibiRobo to ChibRobo Park Patrol? Yeah, I'll have some of that. Mario 64 to Mario Sunshine? No problem! Get the series feel right and give me something fun to do and I'm a happy person.
On the other hand, there's always stuff like Guitar Hero II to Guitar Hero: 80s. Zzzz.... Total snore-fest. I also wish there'd been a longer gap between Katamari Damacy and We <3 Katamari. Nothing makes a game less special than an annual sequel. Doesn't mean I don't want to play more, just that a decent length of time between one and the next keeps things fresh.
James
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